(SMVcon) Developers cooperating with AG Meinungsfindungstool

Tue Mar 5 09:09:01 EST 2013

I'm ALL IN on (1), and I think that's what the "Ontology" is all about. Its
a way to map one plattform onto another, ... where plattform is called a
plugin when it comes to AG Meinungsfindungstool.
But as mentioned in discussions way earlier, these plugins do not
necessarily plug into something, but instead into each other, ...which
means a plugin is just a plattform that uses ontologies for "Vote
mirroring" :-)

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Michael Allan <mike at zelea.com> wrote:

> Marc and Alex,
>
> Marc said:
> > So the overall question to be answered from your side is: Do you
> > want to participate in such kind of standardized ontology to enable
> > easy data exchange with any participating tool?
> >
> > I would like to welcome you. What do you think?
>
> Thank you.  It depends on how you answer my previous question.  As I
> point out, unless we address the network effects at the root of the
> problem, then (regardless of the ontology) all users will be forced
> onto the same platform.  Users and citizens will be robbed not only of
> their freedom, but also of the opportunity to be the authors of that
> freedom.  How can we cooperate to prevent that?
>
> Alex said:
> > Maybe this is the way to bring forward "vote mirroring"
>
> That's one possible answer.  I don't know if that's Marc's answer.
> It's often difficult for competitors to understand each other.  But we
> must be clear on this issue.  A platform cannot succeed without users.
> There are two ways to obtain those users:
>
>   (1) Eliminate the network effects between platforms, thus levelling
>       the playing field and enabling the users to range freely from
>       platform to platform.
>
>       This is the right way.
>
>   (2) Rely on network effects to force all users onto our own
>       platform, thus establishing it as a de-facto monopoly.
>
>       This is harmful and unecessary, and therefore wrong.
>
> These are the only ways.  There are no grey areas in between.  If our
> choice is not (1), then it is (2), and no responsible engineer will
> cooperate with us.  Instead he'll point to the danger and warn us not
> to proceed.
>
> What should we do?
>
> Mike
>
>
> marc said:
> > Hi Micheal,
> >
> > Currently the working group AG MFT tries to establish several kind of
> > prototypes of a) one concrete methodology (qkonsens), b) concrete
> portal/web
> > site (probble.de) and c) concrete Common Discussion Standard based on an
> > ontology and a web api (disco.codeplex.com).
> >
> > As you put it, all our work is part of #2 (Discussion System) within the
> > overall decision-making process. But nevertheless, I don't think that our
> > working group wants to be competitor to any other project in this area.
> Our
> > aim is rather to cooperate with as much projects as possible.
> >
> > Unfortunately the progress of our working group based on our volunteer
> work
> > is not as fast as I would like to see it. For a better progress our
> working
> > group devided into the following four teams:
> > a) Ontology Definition Team (ODT) - deals with the ontology
> specification.
> > b) Prototype Core Team (PCT) - deals with the imlementation of a database
> > schema based on the ontology and a web api to access the data in a
> restful
> > way.
> > c) Prototype Plug-In Team )PPT) - deals with the implementation of
> concrete
> > discussion methodologies.
> > d) Public Releations Team (PRT) - deals with our 'public relations' ;o)
> >
> > My individual next tasks are in terms of the PCT a) to create a
> conceptual
> > description of our d!sco prototype on CodePlex and b) creating a first
> > implementation of the Web API.
> >
> > As soon as this is established, I would like to invite you to brainstorm
> > about possible collaboration. From our point of view this is a question
> of
> > how to make the data available for all other interested parties. Because
> our
> > goal is to define a common discussion ontologie, inspired by and
> > particularly based on eDialogus
> > (http://www.imc.com.gr/ontologies/eDialogos/consensus/).
> >
> > So the overall question to be answered from your side is: Do you want to
> > participate in such kind of standardized ontology to enable easy data
> > exchange with any participating tool?
> >
> > I would like to welcome you. What do you think?
> >
> > Cheers
> > marc
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Allan
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:19 AM
> > To: AG Meinungsfindungstool
> > Cc: Votorola ; Start/Metagov ; AG Liquid Democracy
> > Subject: Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] (SMVcon) Developers cooperating
> > withAG Meinungsfindungstool
> >
> > Thanks for offering, Marc.  We both feel the same.
> >
> > To answer your question, our purpose is to coordinate plans of action
> > (i.e. to achieve public autonomy) by the method of discussion aimed at
> > mutual understanding and consensus (i.e. public opinion).  In your
> > diagram, this translates to "position forming" (Standpunktbildung)
> > based on a discussion system.
> >
> > > http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/wiki/images/7/72/MFT_BigPicture_v01.jpg
> > > Where would you locate Votorola inside this picture?
> >
> > So we're sitting at #2.  That makes us competitors.  We (Votorolans,
> > Outcasters) have been at this for years, where you (AGM) are just
> > getting started.  But I welcome your offer to cooperate, because I
> > fear that otherwise we might do harm to people.  If either of our
> > platforms were ever to establish itself as a de-facto monopoly that
> > suppresses other choices through network effects, then users and
> > citizens would be robbed not only of their freedom, but also of the
> > opportunity to be the authors of that freedom.
> >
> > How can we cooperate to prevent that?
> >
> > Mike
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>

-- 

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